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This looks interesting:
www.nextapp.com/products/echo/
Looks like a framework for building DHTML apps without having to
know HTML/Javascript. To me, this would have been very interesting about
2 years ago, but I just dont know what kind of future DHTML apps have.
posted by:
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Austin
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Mon, October 11, 2004 - 6:12 AMregarding the future of DHML web-apps:
1) Flex has a VERY hefty price-tag, and is associated with Flash, which makes the pointy-hairs scared (at least in the biz apps world).
2) XAML is years away from even being released, and will supposedly be tied to one version of one operating system. Upgrading hardware and software scares the pointy-hairs way more than Flash ever could.
3) XUL is obscure and without good development guidelines for creating stand-alone apps. At best, it will require that those without Gecko-based installations download the base library.
4) DHTML has a strong core of developers, is well-documented, has been used successfully to build web-apps for many years, and requires no end-user installations at all. It has its shortcomings, but (especially if you're developing for IE only), there isn't a whole lot you can't accomplish with DHTML. Also, gmail.
5) Lazlo is probably the only viable competitor at this point, but at least with the type of companies I work for, it will take some work for them to gain credibility. I'm not sure if I agree, but whenever Flash-based XML systems come up on projects I'm working on, developers have an instinctual distrust of its scalability.
So, yeah, if by "future" you mean 8+ years from now, hopefully DHTML will start disappearing by that point. But there's still very definitely a viable market for DHTML apps: a9 & amazon lite, gmail, snap.com, and many more are only entering the market now with DHTML tech that has been around for MANY years.
I'm definitely interested in Lazlo / Flex, but I haven't seen one "killer app" out there using either of these technologies yet. The most impressive Flash/XML thing I've seen so far is some hotel reservation system, and that's a pretty small-scale application. -
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Mon, October 11, 2004 - 7:58 PMDavid:
I think DHTML its great for simple web-based apps and adding interactivity to web pages. When I said "I don't know what kind of future DTHML apps have", I did not mean it would disappear. I just think that more and more online apps will have some sort of "rich internet app" component to them.
> 1) Flex has a VERY hefty price-tag, and is associated with Flash, which
> makes the pointy-hairs scared (at least in the biz apps world).
For enterprise software (its target market) , Flex is not that expensive (trust me, I worked on enterprise sofware the past 4 years). Also, since it's tied very closely to Java/J2EE it is getting a lot more attention in the biz apps world.
> 2) XAML is years away from even being released, and will supposedly be
> tied to one version of one operating system.
True, its tied to one operating system.... a little known package called Windows ;) Seriously though, it IS a long way off, and a lot can happen between now and then, but I never rule MS out.
> 3) XUL .....
I agree, XUL will be relegated to Slashdot discussions for a long time.
> 4) DHTML has a strong core of developers, is well-documented, ...
I love DHTML... its what I have done for the past 4 years. I think with browsers finally starding to standardize on the DOM things have gotten much better (it was a mess years ago). The problem with DHTML (big IMHO here) is that it does not provide the interactivity that a lot of applications need. For simple apps yes, but for many, no. Take a look a the Flickr organizer software:
www.flickr.com/tools/organizr.gne
View the demo movies. I dont know if an app like that would be possible in DHTML (I know that I could not build it) . And as more web-based applications like that appear, the bar will be raised. DHTML will be used for adding interactivity to web pages, but for RIAs, stuff like Lazslo and Flex can't be beat.
> 5) Lazslo
Since it also is based on Flash (for now), Lazslo will have many of the same problems as Flex in getting acceptance. But with its lower cost it does have an advantage. MM is ahead of them in the marketing and tools area, but with Lazslo being open source now we'll see how the situation changes.
Also, I'm glad to see others are interested in this stuff. This list has been REAL quiet! -
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Mon, October 11, 2004 - 8:24 PMFlex: Well, here's my impression regarding Flex. Enterprises that spend a lot of money on technology (ie. go with .Net / MS SQL) are the most conservative about laying out cash for anything that's remotely 'ahead of the curve'. They'll splurge on anything that Microsoft branded, but otherwise their world is very small. Companies that go with J2EE may lay down some cash on Websphere or an equivalent, but a lot of the Java motivation is the price (lots of open-source tools). Perhaps this is just my jaded view as I'm stuck in a third-rate rust belt town, but like I said, I haven't seen any high-profile Lazlo stuff... yet.
XAML: Nope, not Windows. Longhorn. From what I've read, XAML will not be backwards compatible with XP or anything else. I stopped paying attention a while ago, but that was the last word I got. Has this changed?
Flickr: Rocks. I really need to get back into using it. Do you know if it was developed using Lazlo or Flex or is it all handrolled?
RIA Interest: Well, there's definitely a lot of buzz with the whole Web 2.0 thing going on, lots of high-profile work by big companies. I think the reason this tribe is so quiet is that nobody who's seriously working on good, next-generation interfaces could bring themselves to use Tribe at this point. We're just the suckers.
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Mon, October 11, 2004 - 9:19 PM------------------------
XAML: Nope, not Windows. Longhorn. From what I've read, XAML will not be backwards compatible with XP or anything else. I stopped paying attention a while ago, but that was the last word I got. Has this changed?
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Yes, about 2 months ago. It will be an update for XP.
Miguel de Icaza is not impressed: primates.ximian.com/~miguel/...p-01.html
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Tue, October 12, 2004 - 1:38 PM
Good reading... who is Miguel? He does not have an About section on his blog, so I guess we all should know him by name ;)
He seems to have more of a problem with Longhorn/Avalon than
XAML itself. He rags on MS for not having tools for XAML, but
considering Longhorn is not even done, MS have bigger fish
to fry.
Do you have any links about XAML being an update to XP?
I wonder if Mono will support XAML. That would be cool!
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Wed, October 13, 2004 - 12:08 AMMiguel is the guy behind Mono.
Here's an article about the new longhorn:
news.com.com/Microsoft+r...5327150.html
and an interview with bill:
news.com.com/Gates+Longh...5327377.html
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Tue, October 12, 2004 - 1:47 PMFlickr is hand rolled Flash.... I think its build on the same Flash code they used for their online game "Game Never Ending".
I agree that there does not appear to be too many of us working on cool RIAs yet. I believe a large part of it is that the tools are so new to people who have built web apps so far. There ARE folks using Flex to build enterprise apps (I read their questions on the Flex mailing list), but the problem is that these types of application are rarely seen by regular folks (quick, how many here have actually seen Peoplesoft?).
When the cost comes down and designers/coders pick this stuff up, we will see a lot more of this type of app. It will be another tool like MySQL or PHP. It's just a question of time....
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Thu, October 14, 2004 - 8:56 AMI'd like to suggest taking a look at Xamlon (xamlon.com). They have a product which allows you to develop XAML applications today which will run on Windows 98 and up.
And just to let you know I am affiliated with the company, but I am always looking to find people interested in the RIA space to evaluate what we have. -
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Thu, October 14, 2004 - 11:15 AMI would love this right now if it wasn't restricted to .Net apps. I'm building a c++ gui and it's a pain in the ass. Unfortunately, we can't require the .net framework to be installed clientside for our app. -
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Re: Anyone here used Echo?
Tue, October 19, 2004 - 9:56 AMYeah, i can feel your pain. I'll mark you down as one more vote to drop the .NET Framework. I'm not promising anything, though...:)
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